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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Some of these responses gave me a good chuckle so I'm compelled to respond...

ChromaKey wrote:
Hogwash!

BearMtnHIB wrote:
Bill of non-rights
ARTICLE I:You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other form of wealth.

We have and do not forfeit a basic universal right to education, higher education, neutral Internet access, and all other forms of publicly-cultivated knowledge.
Sorry, but you don't have a right to material things you have not earned... education is a different topic
Quote:
ARTICLE II:You do not have the right to never be offended.

You have a reasonable expectation of equal respect for your spirituality, individuality, and cultural distinctiveness. Nobody's rights extend beyond yours, nor may they trod over roughshod just because they're too arrogant to Get It and think it's cool to degrade others' hearts with uninvited attacks against difference for the sake of wrongful cultural and social curation imposed upon others against their will.
Anyone and everyone has the right to offend me with their words or actions as long as those words or actions don't physically harm me. Who would I call for "justice" if someone offends me?
Quote:
ARTICLE III:You do not have the right to be free from harm.

You do have a right to be free of others' wrongful harm, whether it's spiritual, material, economic, or even social. No government authority, no corporation, and no cult has a right to harm you or violate you in any way or form, direct or indirect. Harm needs to be defined

Quote:
ARTICLE IV:You do not have the right to free food and housing.

You actually do. There's absolutely no need or moral justification for anyone to be homeless, it most certainly is not a resource or prosperity issue. There's enough of both in the world that nobody need go homeless, and it's a sickness and pathology that so many do, even in 'prosperous' places such as these United States of America. If you can't afford or arrange a warm dry place to sleep on your own, then society does absolutely have an intense moral obligation from the top down to help you out of compassion, Christian or otherwise, long before one cent is spent on any misguided aspirations for militarism. What if we all decided to stop working and just demand free food and housing until we all die? Who would pay for that? Are these "rights" just for people who can not provide for themselves or are they also for people who don't want to provide for themselves?

Quote:
ARTICLE V:You do not have the right to free health care.

You actually do. You just do, full stop. It's a universal human right to have access to health care, and because not all people have access to money, it's implicit this means in some instances health care must be free. It's a social obligation of a society and civilization to take care of its own. Anything less is self-defeating pathology on a breathtaking grand scale.Do I have a right to free dental as well, even if I can afford it?

Quote:
ARTICLE VI:You do not have the right to physically harm other people.

Who thinks they do? Hint: They're all hard-right fascists. They seek authority so that, like cowardly bullies, they may harm others from positions of safety and authority and act as if it is somehow they have a right to do so inscrutably, creating endless loss, a spirit of malice, and harm in our world for the sake of their violent arrogant aspirations to dominate.
We do actually, it's called abortion
Quote:
ARTICLE VII:You do not have the right to the possessions of others.

You don't have a right to privatize the commonwealth, or degrade the public's world. You may not perform agriculture or industry that poisons the water, air, soil, food, animals, people, cities, homes, the world. You can't treat our world as an open sewer. You also may not rob ancient tombs or sites. There's a hell of a lot of stolen property and prosperity that should be returned to its rightful owners fair and square, like, for example, every cent and item from every asset forfeiture an agent of the government perpetuated against a member of the public without any court conviction. The sophistry and self-justification of pirates never convinces the good. None of us have the right to live here because someone else did first, therefore we should all hand over our properties to any remaining Native Americans. Right?

Quote:
ARTICLE VIII:You do not have the right to a job.

You do have a right to prosperity, and the world is so prosperous now, so populous, with automation so powerful, few need work driven like slaves nor need they make so little for it. It's theft and slavery when the prosperity is vacuumed up, or cornered by monopolies and corrupted failed government protection rackets.
You have the right to pursue a job with equal opportunity if your skills are adequate, but you don't have a right to any job and you don't have a right to equal outcomes unless you deserve them.
Quote:
ARTICLE IX:You do not have the right to happiness.

Of course you have a right to happiness. That's obviously implicit in the right to pursue. Only an objectively fascist demagogue would be confused about that.
Define happiness, lol. If I can only be happy living a Kardashian lifestyle, is that my right to have that? You only have the right to pursue whatever may make you happy, PERIOD.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:11 pm 
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Happy is a spiritual status and as such mostly only requires you have the elements needed for human flourishing or eudaimonia.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 5:34 am 
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I think this is more of a disagreement on defining the word "rights"

I've noticed the progressive left uses a very expansive definition of that word. Every new issue or agenda item starts with "We have a right to________....."

Others use a more traditional narrow definition of basic natural rights and enumerated Constitutional rights. Every thing else is legislated laws, regulations and societal expectations that change over time, they should not be confused with basic rights. imo


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:26 am 
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ChromaKey wrote:
Happy is a spiritual status and as such mostly only requires you have the elements needed for human flourishing or eudaimonia.

So are those "elements" not subjective? Pretty hard to guarantee everybody has a right to things that can not be universally defined.

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The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:07 am 
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Slickgreen wrote:
ChromaKey wrote:
Happy is a spiritual status and as such mostly only requires you have the elements needed for human flourishing or eudaimonia.

So are those "elements" not subjective? Pretty hard to guarantee everybody has a right to things that can not be universally defined.

I'm not sure what it is that you believe to be non-universal about the human experience; our material and spiritual needs aren't that different, even though they express themselves in myriad, complex, beautiful cultural ways, much like the example set by the life of the natural world, which is after all a pure divine expression. It's more variation than repetition, but it emerges from these shared attributes and patterns of being alive and representing all the possible ways of making the experiences of life like some joyful thread in a universal quilt, or a voice in the chorus of being alive, a part of this planet, and grateful for that experience and the beauty it contains...


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 6:38 am 
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CK, again it is about defining terms. You use the words: social or moral obligation, expectations, and " have access to"...etc. which are fine, but shouldn't be confused with "rights". I think that is where you get confused.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:05 am 
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joeschmo wrote:
CK, again it is about defining terms. You use the words: social or moral obligation, expectations, and " have access to"...etc. which are fine, but shouldn't be confused with "rights". I think that is where you get confused.

CK is just pulling this stuff from the left wing play book and adding more frosting. In their eyes, everything is a "right" as long as it is beneficial in creating "happiness". What she and others like her tend to ignore is that one's happiness is mostly dependent on that individual's motivation to pursue it and that individual's unique set of parameters that give that person a sense of happiness. Government giving us a right to be happy is like giving us a right to be rich... how bad do you want it and do you know how to get there? The problem is, some people will never be rich enough or happy enough because they will never get "there"... they always want more. Pretty hard to guarantee a right that is dependent on personal motivation and satisfaction.

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The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
Charles Bukowski


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:16 am 
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ChromaKey wrote:
I'm not sure what it is that you believe to be non-universal about the human experience; our material and spiritual needs aren't that different, even though they express themselves in myriad, complex, beautiful cultural ways, much like the example set by the life of the natural world, which is after all a pure divine expression. It's more variation than repetition, but it emerges from these shared attributes and patterns of being alive and representing all the possible ways of making the experiences of life like some joyful thread in a universal quilt, or a voice in the chorus of being alive, a part of this planet, and grateful for that experience and the beauty it contains...


The real world (and natural world) is quite different than the modern progressive's daydreams about what the world should be, or even could be. CK, you will come on here time and time again and rail against the capitalist economic system, yet you fail to realize that it is this capitalist ideology that provides the highest standard of living and the highest level of freedom on earth.

You would not know that the very system that you scorn brings the highest quality of human experience. You rail against corporations and say that you are oppressed by them, but you appear to know little about real oppression. The vast majority of the world has a totally different real life experience about oppression, because most of the world experiences real oppression. Ask the men and women of Venezuela what economic oppression is! They know because just a few decades back, the standard of living was magnitudes higher. But stupid ideas have brought misery to this country in a very short time.

American men are oppressing women, yet you fail to realize that in most of the world, women experience real oppression. The real oppression against women in most of the world makes the minute problems we have here look like the ant in a molehill. In most of the world, women are still really second class citizens. The rules for them include never leaving the house without a related male escort, most can not drive or even go shop for groceries without a male family member. Marriage is often dictated to them. A job or career is out of the question. In contrast, American women have it pretty damned easy- yet many spend most of their time complaining about being sexually harassed. In most cases- no harassment even took place, but they may have been swindled out of a kiss, or sweet talked into bed by some married Mr. Man. That's not harassment, ask the women in Egypt what they think, or those girls in Sudan who were kidnapped and married off to Muslim men what sexual harassment is- They can tell you.

Back about the early 2000's I was on a team that designed two 20 million gallon/day water treatment plants in a new country called Eritrea. OPEC paid for the two plants to be designed and built, not because they cared for the poor people there, but because they thought there may be oil to be exploited there. A few engineers on site were sending me photos they took of the local people standing in line with buckets waiting for water (mostly women and children). The government controlled the spigots, and if the people caused any problems, they simply would not unlock the spigots. I saw the women there in bare feet, no protection from the hot summer sun, standing for hours waiting for water. Then they had to carry the water back to their village, with 40 pounds on their head and more in their hands.
We couldn't find a competent contractor to build the plants - we searched the whole country trying to hire a local company, but none existed. The whole damned country didn't even have a construction company big enough, or qualified enough! We had to hire a South African company to build it. This is the crappy world we live in. Even then, we couldn't even keep a section of pipe or a manhole cover around during construction without it being stolen and sold for money, because people would steal anything to sell & buy food.
https://nrce.com/project/adi-nefas-water-treatment-plant-and-treated-water-pipeline-eritrea/
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Latest UN Inquiry (2015) reports gross human rights violations in Eritrea. The Government of Eritrea is responsible for systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations that have created a climate of fear. A large proportion of the population is subjected to forced labour and imprisonment, and hundreds of thousands of refugees have fled the country.


What is it about our moral, economic, judicial systems in the USA that provides such a higher standard of opportunity for everyone? I think we can look to the founding documents and find most of the answers, and the moral guidance they got from Christianity. Also, many of our rights were at the insistence of the states before they would agree to a central government, however small the central government was to be at the time. Many rights were just deemed to be common sense, or natural rights, which they wanted penned onto paper so they could be guaranteed to society in perpetuity.

The world is not what the modern progressive thinks it is. It's not all unicorns and butterflies. Some systems work better than others. Try not to act the victim, you are not. Try to recognize that a system like ours works better than the others, while not perfect. We can make it better, but to advocate for a socialist system is just asking for trouble.

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At the end of the day, you are solely responsible for your success and your failure. And the sooner you realize that, you accept that, and integrate that into your work ethic, you will start being successful. As long as you blame others for the reason you aren't where you want to be, you will always be a failure.
Erin Cummings

Quote:
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
Churchill

_________________
"Corruptissima republica plurimae leges"(69 A.D.)

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the Gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the distribution of equal misery Churchill

https://fcpp.org/2009/01/16/atlas-shrug ... -52-years/

Government is not the solution to our problem, Government is the problem
Ron Reagan


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:03 am 
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BearMtnHIB wrote:
Bill of non-rights

The following has been attributed to Lewis Napper, a Jackson, Mississippi computer programmer. He didn't expect his essay -- a tart 11-point list of "rights" Americans don't have -- to become an Internet legend.

'We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great- grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional. We hold these truths to be self evident: that a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of NON-Rights.'

ARTICLE I:You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II:You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc.; but the world is full of dummies, and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III:You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful; do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

ARTICLE IV:You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE V:You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.

ARTICLE VI:You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you get the blue juice.

ARTICLE VII:You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII:You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

ARTICLE IX:You do not have the right to happiness . Being an American means that you have the right to PURSUE happiness, which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

ARTICLE X:This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you came from, English is our language. Learn it and USE it!
Lastly

ARTICLE XI:You do not have the right to change our country's history or heritage. This country was founded on the belief in one true God. And yet, you are given the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all; with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our heritage and history, sorry if you are uncomfortable with it.

If you agree, share this with a friend. No, you don't have to, and nothing tragic will befall you if you don't. I just think it's about time common sense is allowed to flourish.

Sensible people of the United States must speak out because if you do not, who will?


:Hysterical: rofllol It's so stupid...It's a massive Straw Man- I'm as far to the left as you can get and I don't know anybody who thinks we have a RIGHT to most of that stuff, expept ARTICLE III: We do have the right to have our day in court- Its just one of the pillars of our democracy, thats all! lol. And nobody ever got money from a jury of their peers for sticking a screw driver in their eye?

Bear...Wait until someone says they have a right to something- Don't make up stories and put words in our mouths so you can argue against them? You sound like an idiot-

And in America, we can speak any language and worship any gods we want- Sorry

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:27 am 
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Golf n Gamble wrote:
I'm as far to the left as you can get and I don't know anybody you think we have a RIGHT to any of those things, expept ARTICLE III: We do have the right to have our day in court- Its just one of the pillars of our democracy... Thats all! lol. And nobody ever got money from a jury of their peers for sticking a screw driver in their eye?

Bear...Wait until someone says they have a right to something- Don't make up stories and put words in our mouths so you can argue against them? You sound like an idiot-

And in America, we can speak any language and worship any gods we want- Sorry


Sport-

This is not MY list...
I'm glad you agree that these are not rights. Neither is getting millions for spilling coffee in your lap.
I also agree you can worship any god you want.

So we agree.

_________________
"Corruptissima republica plurimae leges"(69 A.D.)

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the Gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the distribution of equal misery Churchill

https://fcpp.org/2009/01/16/atlas-shrug ... -52-years/

Government is not the solution to our problem, Government is the problem
Ron Reagan


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